Comments on: Shut up about the “two-state solution.” In a classic case of false advertising: President Obama tries to push “separate but equal” on the Palestinians http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/ Breaking CSUN news and information. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:52:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Charlie Pottins http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-31038 Charlie Pottins Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:12:56 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-31038 I won't bother replying to all those Zionist nudniks, like the person who thinks Zionist institutions in Palestine were set up by Jews who had been there thousands of years (with names like Grunstein, Shertok and Myerson?) The truth is the British issued the Balfour Declaration for their own purposes (and Balfour had no love for Jews, and sought to keep us out of UK). Then after World War II the US preferred to see refugees from Europe head that way. Same with those coming from Russia later. And then there's those who were brought from Iraq and Morocco... Point is, having got this far, how to set things right. The Palestinian fighters who took the lead in PLO thought at first they could wage a guerilla struggle like in Algeria and drive the colonists out. Then they realised they needed some programme that would enable Jews to live alongside Palestinians, and put forward the secular democratic state (for all that it referred to Jews, christians and Muslims, as if the problem was religious communities, stopping short of recognising the national entity). It was after the 1973 war and with Sinai returning to Egypt that the PLO leadership started turning to the idea of setting up a state alongside Israel. The US and Israel were not interested. They tried to destroy the PLO in Lebanon, and thought they had succeeded - until they got a shock with the first Intifada, and the world saw they were dealing with a nation, not just a few "terrorists". It looked at one point as though US-brokered talks were leading to the "two state solution" - not a solution, in my view, but certainly a step away from permanent occupation and conflict. But Clinton told Arafat not to proclaim a state, Israel did everything to humiliate and undermine the Palestinian authority and sabotage its economy, while carrying on with strategic settlements; and the disillusioned Palestinian people turned in large numbers to Hamas. (whose tactics also deliberately undermined their own side's efforts, being designed not to defeat Israel but to capture the Palestinian street). So many deaths later we are back at square one. Except nobody is talking about a secular democratic state. Not Hamas, obviously. But between now and the vision of restored caliphate they are desperately trying to re-open talks with Israel and the United States. Meanwhile Israel has a government that sees no reason to accept a Palestinian state, and abandon its settlements, let alone alone accept Palestinians returning as equals. Maybe if enough Israelis and Palestinians get fed up and are admitted to the USA you could as easily get one state for them in California. But otherwise I would suggest the need is not for Obama to "shut up about two states" but to make it more than talk by putting pressure on Israel to withdraw, and recognising and aiding a real Palestinian state - not a Reservation! Economic sense and progress would push the two states soon enough into merger or federation as equals. But without real forces for change, talk of one state is just idle dreaming. I won’t bother replying to all those Zionist nudniks, like the person who thinks Zionist institutions in Palestine were set up by Jews who had been there thousands of years (with names like Grunstein, Shertok and Myerson?) The truth is the British issued the Balfour Declaration for their own purposes (and Balfour had no love for Jews, and sought to keep us out of UK). Then after World War II the US preferred to see refugees from Europe head that way. Same with those coming from Russia later. And then there’s those who were brought from Iraq and Morocco…
Point is, having got this far, how to set things right. The Palestinian fighters who took the lead in PLO thought at first they could wage a guerilla struggle like in Algeria and drive the colonists out. Then they realised they needed some programme that would enable Jews to live alongside Palestinians, and put forward the secular democratic state (for all that it referred to Jews, christians and Muslims, as if the problem was religious communities, stopping short of recognising the national entity). It was after the 1973 war and with Sinai returning to Egypt that the PLO leadership started turning to the idea of setting up a state alongside Israel.
The US and Israel were not interested. They tried to destroy the PLO in Lebanon, and thought they had succeeded – until they got a shock with the first Intifada, and the world saw they were dealing with a nation, not just a few “terrorists”.
It looked at one point as though US-brokered talks were leading to the “two state solution” – not a solution, in my view, but certainly a step away from permanent occupation and conflict. But Clinton told Arafat not to proclaim a state, Israel did everything to humiliate and undermine the Palestinian authority and sabotage its economy, while carrying on with strategic settlements; and the disillusioned Palestinian people turned in large numbers to Hamas. (whose tactics also deliberately undermined their own side’s efforts, being designed not to defeat Israel but to capture the Palestinian street).
So many deaths later we are back at square one. Except nobody is talking about a secular democratic state. Not Hamas, obviously. But between now and the vision of restored caliphate they are desperately trying to re-open talks with Israel and the United States. Meanwhile Israel has a government that sees no reason to accept a Palestinian state, and abandon its settlements, let alone alone accept Palestinians returning as equals.
Maybe if enough Israelis and Palestinians get fed up and are admitted to the USA you could as easily get one state for them in California.
But otherwise I would suggest the need is not for Obama to “shut up about two states” but to make it more than talk by putting pressure on Israel to withdraw, and recognising and aiding a real Palestinian state – not a Reservation! Economic sense and progress would push the two states soon enough into merger or federation as equals. But without real forces for change, talk of one state is just idle dreaming.

]]> By: William Smart http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-31026 William Smart Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:37:16 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-31026 "The Truth" - almost everything you've said is either untrue or unpleasant. Or simply bizarre, like talk of "a homeland". Palestinians had few aspirations to self-government - so what? Jews never had any aspirations to self-government - a very good reason not to launch pogroms against them. It's quite shocking to claim that the gentle nationalism of the Palestinians is any reason for them to lose their homes. TT: I can’t help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war. Because, despite being cut off from "Greater Syria" and despite being forced to accept the sovereignty of a British-chosen King, they lived relatively happily. Like you or I, chiefly concerned for their homes and families. They were not living under a brutal occupation as they've now done for 40 years. TT: Palestine ... was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. Jewish rule lasted 100 years before the Romans arrived (or 300 years if you insist on the Biblical account that archaeology virtually disproves). The Italians ruled 670 years and the Muslims 1311 years (less a bit when the Crusaders were there). The Jews wouldn't have a claim even if their length of occupation counted for anything, which it doesn't. TT: The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. Surely one of the stupidest promises in the history of the world! Illegal by any measure, and far worse than many other bad things they did such as, say, the incorporation of Ireland into the British Isles. TT: The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. There was no Temple built by Solomon. There cannot have been since he was, at most, a hill-village chieftain - that's what the archaelogy shows. We're not even sure anyone lived at Jerusalem at the right time, despite it having been populated earlier. And the world's first monotheistic religion was invented in the 7th century BCE, around 200 years later, so he couldn't even claim to be Jewish! “The Truth” – almost everything you’ve said is either untrue or unpleasant. Or simply bizarre, like talk of “a homeland”. Palestinians had few aspirations to self-government – so what? Jews never had any aspirations to self-government – a very good reason not to launch pogroms against them. It’s quite shocking to claim that the gentle nationalism of the Palestinians is any reason for them to lose their homes.

TT: I can’t help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

Because, despite being cut off from “Greater Syria” and despite being forced to accept the sovereignty of a British-chosen King, they lived relatively happily. Like you or I, chiefly concerned for their homes and families. They were not living under a brutal occupation as they’ve now done for 40 years.

TT: Palestine … was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I.

Jewish rule lasted 100 years before the Romans arrived (or 300 years if you insist on the Biblical account that archaeology virtually disproves). The Italians ruled 670 years and the Muslims 1311 years (less a bit when the Crusaders were there). The Jews wouldn’t have a claim even if their length of occupation counted for anything, which it doesn’t.

TT: The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

Surely one of the stupidest promises in the history of the world! Illegal by any measure, and far worse than many other bad things they did such as, say, the incorporation of Ireland into the British Isles.

TT: The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon.

There was no Temple built by Solomon. There cannot have been since he was, at most, a hill-village chieftain – that’s what the archaelogy shows. We’re not even sure anyone lived at Jerusalem at the right time, despite it having been populated earlier. And the world’s first monotheistic religion was invented in the 7th century BCE, around 200 years later, so he couldn’t even claim to be Jewish!

]]> By: Word http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-30983 Word Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:14:59 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-30983 Amazing article Joseph. Also I commend you on your responses to these hasbara cut and pasters. Your passion for justice in Palestine is amazing. I believe it is in our life time that apartheid will no longer exist in Palestine, and these racist Israeli supporters will go the way of the KKK. Amazing article Joseph.

Also I commend you on your responses to these hasbara cut and pasters.

Your passion for justice in Palestine is amazing. I believe it is in our life time that apartheid will no longer exist in Palestine, and these racist Israeli supporters will go the way of the KKK.

]]> By: newhavendan http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-30980 newhavendan Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:16:25 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-30980 This article is wonderful and factually correct. It's sad that the coverage of Israel/Palestine is so biased in the U.S. that people find this article controversial. It is not. I recommend reading Jeff Halper's An Israeli in Palestine to get up to speed on the issue. That, or go to the West Bank in person (as I did) and see the Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign firsthand. I'm not lying; this is reality. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me. This article is wonderful and factually correct. It’s sad that the coverage of Israel/Palestine is so biased in the U.S. that people find this article controversial. It is not.

I recommend reading Jeff Halper’s An Israeli in Palestine to get up to speed on the issue. That, or go to the West Bank in person (as I did) and see the Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign firsthand. I’m not lying; this is reality. Check it out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

]]> By: Coexist http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14509 Coexist Sun, 04 Oct 2009 18:48:42 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14509 "It’s easier than you think…..That is if you actually care about Palestinians more than you care about hating Israel." -Where did he establish that he hates Israel? Not accepting as legitimate the current borders of a country and disagreeing with how it was founded does NOT logically equate to hate. If you think it does, go take some logic courses because that conclusion cannot even be inferred let alone deduced. "I will, in short say, the article is belittling of the issue, horrible, and should be exposed for what it is – HATE LITERATURE. It belongs aside of Mein Kamph and other hate literature. " -And I will, in short, say that this statement is a horrible analogy. There is nothing hateful about Joseph's article in the least. To compare it to Mein Kampf shows that you haven't even the slightest clue what the Mein Kampf is. I think it is clearly established here that the opinion is based in an interest for both people to live peacefully together. If one is to believe otherwise, that Jews and Palestinians cannot live peacefully together, then it is just a reinforcement of this "hatred" that you yourself have created, and that you so aptly spin around and crucify yourselves with. All of this talk of "hating Israel" is created by the Israel-supporter who has no better complaint to fall back on, besides claiming the archaic "woe-is-me" statement that projects the perfectly calculated victimized image of Israel - an image that is beyond irrational and imaginary. What has the state of Israel fallen victim to that the Palestinians weren't already themselves victims to first? Labeling a people who fight in self-defense as the aggressors is a cheap and pathetic shot at legitimizing any and all claims against a bi-national state and is a good way to share anti-Palestinian sentiments. “It’s easier than you think…..That is if you actually care about Palestinians more than you care about hating Israel.”

-Where did he establish that he hates Israel? Not accepting as legitimate the current borders of a country and disagreeing with how it was founded does NOT logically equate to hate. If you think it does, go take some logic courses because that conclusion cannot even be inferred let alone deduced.

“I will, in short say, the article is belittling of the issue, horrible, and should be exposed for what it is – HATE LITERATURE. It belongs aside of Mein Kamph and other hate literature. ”

-And I will, in short, say that this statement is a horrible analogy. There is nothing hateful about Joseph’s article in the least. To compare it to Mein Kampf shows that you haven’t even the slightest clue what the Mein Kampf is.

I think it is clearly established here that the opinion is based in an interest for both people to live peacefully together. If one is to believe otherwise, that Jews and Palestinians cannot live peacefully together, then it is just a reinforcement of this “hatred” that you yourself have created, and that you so aptly spin around and crucify yourselves with.

All of this talk of “hating Israel” is created by the Israel-supporter who has no better complaint to fall back on, besides claiming the archaic “woe-is-me” statement that projects the perfectly calculated victimized image of Israel – an image that is beyond irrational and imaginary. What has the state of Israel fallen victim to that the Palestinians weren’t already themselves victims to first? Labeling a people who fight in self-defense as the aggressors is a cheap and pathetic shot at legitimizing any and all claims against a bi-national state and is a good way to share anti-Palestinian sentiments.

]]> By: Joseph http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14308 Joseph Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:52:10 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14308 Roman: I agree with you 100%. Since Ahmadinejad stole an election in Iran, the children of Gaza must die. In fact 400 wasn't enough, let's go for round two. Since Hamas hides bombs inside their babies diapers, they should all just die. Roman: I agree with you 100%. Since Ahmadinejad stole an election in Iran, the children of Gaza must die. In fact 400 wasn’t enough, let’s go for round two. Since Hamas hides bombs inside their babies diapers, they should all just die.

]]> By: Joseph http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14305 Joseph Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:44:14 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14305 Aaron: My entire response was to the first commenter only: here is what I have to say to you: “Palestinians have NEVER been Israeli citizens.” -This is sort of a bizarre statement. You’re basically saying people don’t have a right to be in a country that was created in their homeland without their consent. In other words, according to your rationale: Jewish people had no right to be in Palestine until it became Israel and they were official citizens. Also, that means Native Americans in this country had no rights until they became citizens. Why do you think it takes citizenship to earn human rights? I think this is sick anti-Israel rhetoric we need to move away from to reach peace, sir. “Supporters of Israel” do not want an exclusively Jewish state. -"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment . . . Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." – Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization The Israeli Foreign Minister is the neo-fascist Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s spokesman to the world has some interesting things to say such as there’s “nothing undemocratic about transfer (of Israeli Palestinians)” and "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost”. This would seem to fly in the face of your theory of Israelis not wanting an exclusively Jewish State. These two quotes are not from fringe outsiders. This is the founder of Zionism and Israel’s ambassador to the world. “They live rather peaceful with a 20% Arab population that are full citizens.” -“Israeli Arabs” are Palestinians who survived the ethnic cleansing (Nakba) of 1948, and who are now citizens of Israel. They are however, anything but equal. They are not even classified as an official minority by the government! Israel just wants them to be invisible and to disappear! Palestinian-Israelis cannot own property, because all their fellow Palestinians’ land that was stolen is reserved by the Jewish National Fund for Jews only: They are 20% of the population living on only 3% of Israeli they are allowed to own. How do you explain that? Is this just a coincidence? The 2003 Citizenship Law says for Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza; women under 25 and men under 35 that marry Israelis cannot usually move to Israel. This is exactly the same as the white racists in this country that had discriminatory laws that punished, god forbid, whites from marrying blacks. Miscenegation is a big push in Israel right now, it’s truly pathetic. They aren’t allowed access to housing and education subsidies because they don’t do the army service. In fact: In 2003, Israel’s own government, in The Orr Commission, said "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory". In Israel only 4% of the Israeli budget is spent on Arab communities, even Israel’s special relationship friend the US’s State Dept said Palestinian Israelis face: “institutional, legal, and societal discrimination” Since 1948 no Arab towns have been founded even though their population has gotten seven times larger. Palestinian Parliamentarian, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was born in Jerusalem, but since he is now in the West Bank, he can never go back to his home in what is now Occupied East Jerusalem, which Israel illegally annexed in 1967, which not even the US recognizes as legal. Over 50% of the Palestinian Israelis live in poverty, there are constant shortages of teachers in the classroom, and Arabs are not allowed to attend Jewish schools AND Arab children are not allowed to be near Jewish children at their daycare centers AND the Israeli government spends NINE TIMES more money per pupil on a Jewish student as they do on a Palestinian student. I hope you know you’re basically assuming the role of the white supremacist in Jim Crow America in the South, saying “we treat our coloreds good”. “Millions of new foreigners that have never been citizens to all of a sudden be part of the legal framework of the country, especially when that group of people have been taught to loathe and despise Israel.” This would be the same logic as saying black people in America don’t deserve citizenship, because they are just taught to hate America and are angry about the past. This is incredibly offensive rhetoric. They are not “foreigners”, Palestine is their home, and no one can ever take that away from them even if they have to wait a thousand years. By contrast, Mr. Israel is our Home, Avigdor Lieberman only came here 21 years ago! Lieberman and his neo-fascist supporters are the only “foreigners”. Palestinians whose families have been there for hundreds of years are “foreigners”? Those who are there to hate no matter how long or short they’ve been there should take it elsewhere. The Holy Land should be a place for peace and coexistence not fascism, racism, and separate but equal. "Why put an emphasis on the history of the land, if you fail to mention that Jews have lived there continuously for 2,500 years?" -The emphasis isn’t on 2,500 years ago, it’s on 62 years ago in 1948, you know when our parents were alive. This is quite a different story, not the Bronze Age. It’s a real shame the Jewish people, that of course were always there in small numbers in Palestine (single digit %’s), that lived in total coexistence in Palestine (don’t bring up the other Arab countries that treated them bad, they’ve always been fine in Palestine) are now vilified due to the brutality of the Zionist movement, and it’s terrorist branches: the Stern Gang and Haganah and others. “The actual number of Arab Palestinians forcefully expelled was under 100,000 with the rest leaving by choice, natural fear of war” -This is truly the most disgusting statement of the whole comment section. You are engaging in the equivalent of Holocaust denial, which is indescribably shameful on your part. Nakba denial is no less racist and offensive than the denial of the Shoah. More Palestinians were driven out BEFORE the Arab countries even invaded [483,600 (52%)], than were driven out after. How would you feel if someone told you the Jews voluntarily threw themselves in Hitler’s ovens? I know I would be infuriated. I have a direct question to ask you: Are there any other genocides you deny? What do you think of the Armenian Genocide? Do you approve of the Israel Lobby, AIPAC killing the bill for the American Congress to recognize the Genocide in Armenia? Don’t be a coward answer directly. Read Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, if you want to take a break from your Hasbara lessons with StandWithUs and learn the truth. “a war started by Arab aggression – and some even left due to Arab command.” -This is exactly what the colonists said when making their way across America on Manifest Destiny. The “Indians” were the aggressors attacking poor innocent white settlers. If I invade your country, rape and kill your women, does that mean you’re the aggressor when you finally fight back? “This article may seem like a good facade for wanting peace and a real solution, but rhetorical terms such as ‘ethnically cleansed’ and a completely bias presentation of history reveals it to be nothing more than your usual anti-Israel bias and sentiment. Congratulations.” -Sorry it’s biased in your mind, but there’s no balance between an occupied people living under military dictatorship for 42 years who sometimes use immoral means of resistance and the occupying power who as a state policy uses terror, and apartheid. What do you mean by “anti-Israel bias”? Why don’t you go all Dershowitz on me and call me an anti-Semite, which is really what you mean. I don’t give a damn about governments; the Knesset or the Palestinian Authority, I care about THE PEOPLE! Just because I criticize Israel strongly, and call it out on its acts of brutality and terror, doesn’t mean I don’t have great love for the Jewish people. Israel is a country, it's not Judaism, and the more people like you try to equate the two, the more Jews the world over will be blamed for what Israel does, and will have to pay the price for Israel's crimes; which is no less tragic than the Palestinians paying the price for Hitler's crimes. I shed just as many tears watching Schindler’s List as I did watching Palestine Blues. I don’t want the rest of the world thinking the decisions the Israeli government makes represent the thoughts and opinions of all Jewish people in the world. In actuality, I have more love and concern for the Jewish people in my fingernail than you have in your whole body. Aaron: My entire response was to the first commenter only: here is what I have to say to you:

“Palestinians have NEVER been Israeli citizens.”

-This is sort of a bizarre statement. You’re basically saying people don’t have a right to be in a country that was created in their homeland without their consent. In other words, according to your rationale: Jewish people had no right to be in Palestine until it became Israel and they were official citizens. Also, that means Native Americans in this country had no rights until they became citizens. Why do you think it takes citizenship to earn human rights?

I think this is sick anti-Israel rhetoric we need to move away from to reach peace, sir.

“Supporters of Israel” do not want an exclusively Jewish state.

-”Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment . . . Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” – Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization

The Israeli Foreign Minister is the neo-fascist Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s spokesman to the world has some interesting things to say such as there’s “nothing undemocratic about transfer (of Israeli Palestinians)” and “They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost”.

This would seem to fly in the face of your theory of Israelis not wanting an exclusively Jewish State. These two quotes are not from fringe outsiders. This is the founder of Zionism and Israel’s ambassador to the world.

“They live rather peaceful with a 20% Arab population that are full citizens.”

-“Israeli Arabs” are Palestinians who survived the ethnic cleansing (Nakba) of 1948, and who are now citizens of Israel. They are however, anything but equal.

They are not even classified as an official minority by the government! Israel just wants them to be invisible and to disappear!

Palestinian-Israelis cannot own property, because all their fellow Palestinians’ land that was stolen is reserved by the Jewish National Fund for Jews only: They are 20% of the population living on only 3% of Israeli they are allowed to own. How do you explain that? Is this just a coincidence?

The 2003 Citizenship Law says for Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza; women under 25 and men under 35 that marry Israelis cannot usually move to Israel. This is exactly the same as the white racists in this country that had discriminatory laws that punished, god forbid, whites from marrying blacks. Miscenegation is a big push in Israel right now, it’s truly pathetic.

They aren’t allowed access to housing and education subsidies because they don’t do the army service.

In fact: In 2003, Israel’s own government, in The Orr Commission, said “government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory”.

In Israel only 4% of the Israeli budget is spent on Arab communities, even Israel’s special relationship friend the US’s State Dept said Palestinian Israelis face: “institutional, legal, and societal discrimination”

Since 1948 no Arab towns have been founded even though their population has gotten seven times larger.

Palestinian Parliamentarian, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was born in Jerusalem, but since he is now in the West Bank, he can never go back to his home in what is now Occupied East Jerusalem, which Israel illegally annexed in 1967, which not even the US recognizes as legal.

Over 50% of the Palestinian Israelis live in poverty, there are constant shortages of teachers in the classroom, and Arabs are not allowed to attend Jewish schools AND Arab children are not allowed to be near Jewish children at their daycare centers AND the Israeli government spends NINE TIMES more money per pupil on a Jewish student as they do on a Palestinian student.

I hope you know you’re basically assuming the role of the white supremacist in Jim Crow America in the South, saying “we treat our coloreds good”.

“Millions of new foreigners that have never been citizens to all of a sudden be part of the legal framework of the country, especially when that group of people have been taught to loathe and despise Israel.”

This would be the same logic as saying black people in America don’t deserve citizenship, because they are just taught to hate America and are angry about the past. This is incredibly offensive rhetoric.

They are not “foreigners”, Palestine is their home, and no one can ever take that away from them even if they have to wait a thousand years.

By contrast, Mr. Israel is our Home, Avigdor Lieberman only came here 21 years ago! Lieberman and his neo-fascist supporters are the only “foreigners”. Palestinians whose families have been there for hundreds of years are “foreigners”? Those who are there to hate no matter how long or short they’ve been there should take it elsewhere. The Holy Land should be a place for peace and coexistence not fascism, racism, and separate but equal.

“Why put an emphasis on the history of the land, if you fail to mention that Jews have lived there continuously for 2,500 years?”

-The emphasis isn’t on 2,500 years ago, it’s on 62 years ago in 1948, you know when our parents were alive. This is quite a different story, not the Bronze Age. It’s a real shame the Jewish people, that of course were always there in small numbers in Palestine (single digit %’s), that lived in total coexistence in Palestine (don’t bring up the other Arab countries that treated them bad, they’ve always been fine in Palestine) are now vilified due to the brutality of the Zionist movement, and it’s terrorist branches: the Stern Gang and Haganah and others.

“The actual number of Arab Palestinians forcefully expelled was under 100,000 with the rest leaving by choice, natural fear of war”

-This is truly the most disgusting statement of the whole comment section. You are engaging in the equivalent of Holocaust denial, which is indescribably shameful on your part.

Nakba denial is no less racist and offensive than the denial of the Shoah.

More Palestinians were driven out BEFORE the Arab countries even invaded [483,600 (52%)], than were driven out after.

How would you feel if someone told you the Jews voluntarily threw themselves in Hitler’s ovens? I know I would be infuriated.

I have a direct question to ask you: Are there any other genocides you deny? What do you think of the Armenian Genocide? Do you
approve of the Israel Lobby, AIPAC killing the bill for the American Congress to recognize the Genocide in Armenia? Don’t be a coward answer directly.

Read Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, if you want to take a break from your Hasbara lessons with StandWithUs and learn the truth.

“a war started by Arab aggression – and some even left due to Arab command.”

-This is exactly what the colonists said when making their way across America on Manifest Destiny. The “Indians” were the aggressors attacking poor innocent white settlers. If I invade your country, rape and kill your women, does that mean you’re the aggressor when you finally fight back?

“This article may seem like a good facade for wanting peace and a real solution, but rhetorical terms such as ‘ethnically cleansed’ and a completely bias presentation of history reveals it to be nothing more than your usual anti-Israel bias and sentiment.
Congratulations.”

-Sorry it’s biased in your mind, but there’s no balance between an occupied people living under military dictatorship for 42 years who sometimes use immoral means of resistance and the occupying power who as a state policy uses terror, and apartheid.

What do you mean by “anti-Israel bias”?
Why don’t you go all Dershowitz on me and call me an anti-Semite, which is really what you mean.

I don’t give a damn about governments; the Knesset or the Palestinian Authority, I care about THE PEOPLE! Just because I criticize Israel strongly, and call it out on its acts of brutality and terror, doesn’t mean I don’t have great love for the Jewish people.

Israel is a country, it’s not Judaism, and the more people like you try to equate the two, the more Jews the world over will be blamed for what Israel does, and will have to pay the price for Israel’s crimes; which is no less tragic than the Palestinians paying the price for Hitler’s crimes.

I shed just as many tears watching Schindler’s List as I did watching Palestine Blues.

I don’t want the rest of the world thinking the decisions the Israeli government makes represent the thoughts and opinions of all Jewish people in the world. In actuality, I have more love and concern for the Jewish people in my fingernail than you have in your whole body.

]]> By: M. A. Gold-Shahar http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14302 M. A. Gold-Shahar Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:25:24 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14302 I have a lot to say, but truthfully, Shaul, Alisa and several others made excellent points, and express themselves excellently. I will, in short say, the article is belittling of the issue, horrible, and should be exposed for what it is - HATE LITERATURE. It belongs aside of Mein Kamph and other hate literature. Thank you to all who have tried to have the truth shine thru. I have a lot to say, but truthfully, Shaul, Alisa and several others made excellent points, and express themselves excellently. I will, in short say, the article is belittling of the issue, horrible, and should be exposed for what it is – HATE LITERATURE. It belongs aside of Mein Kamph and other hate literature. Thank you to all who have tried to have the truth shine thru.

]]> By: Shaul http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14295 Shaul Thu, 01 Oct 2009 05:54:57 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14295 P.S. Another thing Aaron brought up is true. The majority of Israelis and Palestinians BOTH do not want a bi-national state and know it is unreasonable. Forcing them to do so would go against international law and democracy. Why should you, Joseph, a man who lives 10,000 miles from Israel and is neither an Israeli citizen Nor a Palestinian have any legitimate say in what happens? I know everyone has the right to their opinion, but just loo at the title of this article itself. "Shut up about the Two state Solution!"????? While pushing a fake image that you are trying to promote democracy...you yourself are actually saying that what the majority of the people of Israel and Palestine want is irrelevant and people who agreee with that consensus should not voice their opinion. That is ABSURD...and you should be ashamed of yourself. P.S. Another thing Aaron brought up is true.

The majority of Israelis and Palestinians BOTH do not want a bi-national state and know it is unreasonable.

Forcing them to do so would go against international law and democracy.

Why should you, Joseph, a man who lives 10,000 miles from Israel and is neither an Israeli citizen Nor a Palestinian have any legitimate say in what happens?

I know everyone has the right to their opinion, but just loo at the title of this article itself.

“Shut up about the Two state Solution!”?????

While pushing a fake image that you are trying to promote democracy…you yourself are actually saying that what the majority of the people of Israel and Palestine want is irrelevant and people who agreee with that consensus should not voice their opinion.

That is ABSURD…and you should be ashamed of yourself.

]]> By: Shaul http://sundial.csun.edu/2009/09/shut-up-about-the-%e2%80%9ctwo-state-solution-%e2%80%9d-in-a-classic-case-of-false-advertising-president-obama-tries-to-push-%e2%80%9cseparate-but-equal%e2%80%9d-on-the-palestinians/comment-page-1/#comment-14293 Shaul Thu, 01 Oct 2009 05:49:55 +0000 http://sundial.csun.edu/?p=15002#comment-14293 Hi I am an Israeli and I support the two state solution. I want Palestinians to have their own national home as well as the Jews. nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having any opinion. However, my cousin was killed in Jenin, family friend of ours killed by a suicide bomber in 2002, and another friend of mine killed in the first Intifada. Oh and my father knows someone who died in the 1948 war. While somethings are based on opinions and viewpoints and this is an opinion piece....I find your complete lack of mentioning any Israeli deaths from 120 all the way to present day COMPLETELY one sided, bias, and shows that you do not care about human rights or lives of people...but just a smear campaign vested towards Israel. And yes, aaron in the comment section is correct about blatant lies, skewing, and the bigotry in this article. EVERY SINGLE DAY in Israel, hundreds of Israelis get along peacefully with Palestinians. This is not to say there is no conflict or we can ignore it. But focusing on the good and the positive actions that actually make a difference will lead to peace much more than any article like this in the paper. Go to Israel21c.com and in the search box type "Palestinian" There you will see hundreds of links to stories about Palestinians and Israelis working together, from ages 10 to ages 80, in furthering peace. If you, or anyone else that shows hatred towards Israel or positively supports the Palestinian cause independently of criticizing Israel wants to actually make a difference.....go to Israel/Palestine and help out with these initiatives. It's easier than you think.....That is if you actually care about Palestinians more than you care about hating Israel. Hi I am an Israeli and I support the two state solution. I want Palestinians to have their own national home as well as the Jews. nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having any opinion.

However, my cousin was killed in Jenin, family friend of ours killed by a suicide bomber in 2002, and another friend of mine killed in the first Intifada. Oh and my father knows someone who died in the 1948 war.

While somethings are based on opinions and viewpoints and this is an opinion piece….I find your complete lack of mentioning any Israeli deaths from 120 all the way to present day COMPLETELY one sided, bias, and shows that you do not care about human rights or lives of people…but just a smear campaign vested towards Israel.

And yes, aaron in the comment section is correct about blatant lies, skewing, and the bigotry in this article.

EVERY SINGLE DAY in Israel, hundreds of Israelis get along peacefully with Palestinians. This is not to say there is no conflict or we can ignore it. But focusing on the good and the positive actions that actually make a difference will lead to peace much more than any article like this in the paper.

Go to Israel21c.com and in the search box type “Palestinian” There you will see hundreds of links to stories about Palestinians and Israelis working together, from ages 10 to ages 80, in furthering peace.

If you, or anyone else that shows hatred towards Israel or positively supports the Palestinian cause independently of criticizing Israel wants to actually make a difference…..go to Israel/Palestine and help out with these initiatives.

It’s easier than you think…..That is if you actually care about Palestinians more than you care about hating Israel.

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